tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post5987282012539567127..comments2013-01-25T19:23:33.773-05:00Comments on yogrynch: yogrynch the philosopher 2yogrynchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-1814563699915734122012-02-21T09:02:07.191-05:002012-02-21T09:02:07.191-05:00Mike, here's the thing - you confuse the heck ...Mike, here's the thing - you confuse the heck out of me.<br /><br />You say "I agree, it is from the very beginning, but that sums up grace and election only."<br /><br />Then you say, "how can some people of this covenant go to hell, and some to heaven?"<br /><br />What do you think election is? Who does it refer to? What are the effects/consequences of election? What are the effects/consequences of non-election?<br /><br />What do you think grace is? Who does it apply to? What are the effects/consequences of grace?<br />What are the effects/consequences of the non-application of grace?<br /><br />Above all, just to encourage you to deeper thought, when was "the book of life" written, pre or post fall? Under the covenant of grace? Under the covenant of works? Under the "new covenant"? <br /><br />There is no "other half of the equation". It is all grace. There is no equation. The over-arching plan and purpose of God was and is to redeem a people for Himself.yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-54422446513436867642012-02-21T08:24:52.886-05:002012-02-21T08:24:52.886-05:00Please refer to the main body of this post. Look ...Please refer to the main body of this post. Look under "The addendum. Read "That all would be headed to a literal Hell - except for the saving grace of Christ on behalf of the elect - is not in dispute."<br /><br />I said the writer of Hebrews was talking about "salvation" and the perils of rejecting it. This has nothing to do with efficacy of grace extended to the elect, or how irrestible it is. The call of God on an individual sinner for redemption is effective. YET the writer of Hebrews asks "How can we escape if we neglect..." which leads to the question neglect what? <br /><br />Salvation is by grace (by grace are you saved - Ephesians 2:5;8) In the context of what I was saying, grace and salvation were to be taken as interchangeable, based on the Ephesians connection. In other words, "how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation..." could be understood as "how shall we escape if we neglect such a great grace."<br /><br />Did I err in not mentioning the Ephesians passages? I certainly had them in mind, and I have no hesitancy at all to repeat "Those who reject grace (salvation) will be punished"yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-20253029130840764492012-02-21T07:34:01.681-05:002012-02-21T07:34:01.681-05:00I agree, it is from the very beginning, but that s...I agree, it is from the very beginning, but that sums up grace and election only.<br /><br />You have managed to divert the conversation to something that we agree upon, rather than what the original issue was. I do not deny or question the covenant of grace. I claim you are missing the other half of the equation, which is just as important, albeit not for salvation, but for understanding God's sovereignty and grace.<br /><br />So, back on track, if I understand you correctly, you claim there is only one Covenant. We are all born into a covenant of grace, which has existed in eternity before the foundations of time.<br /><br />My question is still how can some people of this covenant go to hell, and some to heaven?Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-67003535209878015282012-02-21T07:05:46.722-05:002012-02-21T07:05:46.722-05:00It is not my intent to attack, just to get clarifi...It is not my intent to attack, just to get clarification from your comments. You claim the writer of Hebrews said we can reject grace, and I do not see it.<br /><br />This is a very major point, if we can reject grace, then I need to rethink my entire theology.<br /><br />Before doing that, because I do not think you are correct, I want to make sure this was from scripture, not just an error in interpretation or typing.<br /><br />So again I ask, where does the Bible state, or suggest so that we can glean it that grace can be rejected?Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-8396338445673775132012-02-21T06:12:02.231-05:002012-02-21T06:12:02.231-05:00Speaking of "your words", in the context...Speaking of "your words", in the context of "not read in the Bible anywhere", please show passage & verse for "Irresistable grace."<br /><br />You, and I, know that those two particular words are not found together in the Bible. Neither is the word "Calvinism."<br /><br />Do not be such a smart-ass when you are trying to attack, it just belittles you. There are after all concepts and principles (irresistible grace, Calvinism, etc) that are gleaned from the whole of scripture, though the words themselves do not appear.yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-88979692716983753862012-02-21T00:59:33.656-05:002012-02-21T00:59:33.656-05:00Now, I need to be clear on what you are asking. A...Now, I need to be clear on what you are asking. Are you referring to the (various, that is more than two) covenants that God has made with man, in which case yes, there is a "better" covenant between God and man, OR are you referring to the covenant that God made with Himself (Let us make man in our image, after our likeness) which is, as I indicated, the primary covenant of grace/redemption that has not been superceded and is in existence from everlasting to everlasting?<br /><br />If it helps clarify things in your mind, I really don't give a hoot about the changeable covenants God makes with man (our sinful nature renders us as nothing but covenant breakers - the word "covenant" appears over 250 times in the Bible) My worship stems from the covenant of grace/redemption that God, who never lies, made with Himself. Hebrews 7:22 is only fully understandable in the context of Genesis 3:15, which I have already mentioned in previous comments. It is not just sensible to read a few verses before and after a quoted verse, it would also help if one read the whole Bible to "get the most out of scripture".<br /><br />Instead of trying to justify 2 covenants (which is, as I said before, dispensational in outlook and ignores multiple other "covenants"), why not rejoice, as you say you do, in the glorious truth of "Grace promised. Grace planned. Grace secured. Grace realized."<br /><br />It's all grace. Not works. Not us and what we do. Jesus and what He did.<br /><br />I want to make a statement that I believe sums it up, and I will ask you a question.<br /><br />The salvation of the elect was God’s intention from the very beginning of creation.<br /><br />Is this, or is this not so?yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-81333224342448268932012-02-20T21:33:06.546-05:002012-02-20T21:33:06.546-05:00You said
"Those who reject grace will be puni...You said<br />"Those who reject grace will be punished. There is neither doubt nor incongruity within the parameter of a single covenant of grace from everlasting to everlasting."<br />I have not read this in the Bible anywhere, I thought those were your words???<br /><br />I have re-read that Hebrews passage several times now, including the text both before and after in order to keep things in the proper context, and I do not see any support for your one covenant idea. <br /><br />Staying within Hebrews, let's look further <br />Hebrews 7:22 *This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.* <br />If Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, does that not mean there must be a lessor covenant?<br /><br />Hebrews 8:7 *For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.*<br />Here the apostle to the Hebrews makes direct reference to 2 separate and distinct covenants.<br /><br />Can this be explained according to your one covenant theology?<br /><br />Instead of trying to argue against what is actually written in scripture by apostles, how about trying to understand what these 2 covenants are so as to get the most out of scripture?Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-63192170379587496082012-02-20T20:19:59.119-05:002012-02-20T20:19:59.119-05:00Again, re-read the Hebrews passage. "I"...Again, re-read the Hebrews passage. "I" am not implying we can reject Christ - stop trying to put words in my mouth I did not say, or are you accusing the writer of Hebrews of blasphemy? Have you even considered that dead people have no relationship, covenant or otherwise? Your last few comments and accusations towards me border on the absurd.yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-54638646915911244932012-02-20T18:27:35.232-05:002012-02-20T18:27:35.232-05:00I think Irresistible Grace means a whole lot more ...I think Irresistible Grace means a whole lot more than that. It speaks volumes into the Sovereignty of God. If Grace is poured out on you, you cannot resist or avoid it, If God calls you, you can only answer, the choice is not yours. By implying we can reject Christ or Grace is completely incorrect.<br /><br />So the question your comments raise is if everyone is lost, what covenant relationship are they in before they are redeemed?<br /><br />This bit of covenant theology is extremely important, if one misses the proper distinctions of the Bible, they end up misinterpreting all of what they read.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-25485808874172466112012-02-20T18:02:59.489-05:002012-02-20T18:02:59.489-05:00Re-read the Hebrews reference. It is not "my...Re-read the Hebrews reference. It is not "my" statement.<br /><br />Irresistable grace simply means that Christ is not just a "potential" saviour (the bare-bones of Arminianism), but is in fact an actual saviour, dependent on nothing but His own good will and purpose towards His elect.<br /><br />No. Everyone is lost until redeemed per the everlasting covenant of grace. Don't chase down the mystery of God's sovereignty and (individual) man's responsibility.yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-49450337885062282992012-02-20T17:41:22.983-05:002012-02-20T17:41:22.983-05:00So how does your explanation fit with the Calvinis...So how does your explanation fit with the Calvinistic point of Irresistible grace?<br /><br />By your statement some can and do reject Grace, and then are punished. <br /><br />So is everyone saved until they reject the grace of God?Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-60511276449733759312012-02-20T16:57:51.916-05:002012-02-20T16:57:51.916-05:00Can one neglect the covenant of grace? You are br...Can one neglect the covenant of grace? You are bringing in a word - relationship - that is clouding the issue.<br /><br />Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard...<br /><br />There is not a "covenant of redemption relationship." There is a covenant of redemption. There is a vast difference adding in the concept of (conditional) relationship. As Hebrews 2:3 suggests, how can we escape if we neglect/ignore/dismiss/reject/replace this great salvation (as promised by God to Himself and fulfilled by the obedience of Christ unto death?<br /><br />Those who reject grace will be punished. There is neither doubt nor incongruity within the parameter of a single covenant of grace from everlasting to everlasting. There is no rattling of the "non-contradictory" cage. Genesis 3:15 was unconditional, yet neither was it all-inclusive.yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-5901460030191980742012-02-20T16:14:04.796-05:002012-02-20T16:14:04.796-05:00So if there is only one covenant relationship with...So if there is only one covenant relationship with God, then how could anyone be in Hell?Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-88429230651513737852012-02-20T15:57:35.232-05:002012-02-20T15:57:35.232-05:00No. Only 1 overwhelming covenant from the beginni...No. Only 1 overwhelming covenant from the beginning of time. Our confession and repentance is in response to the single convenant of grace, which we neglect to our peril. <br /><br />I am concerned you miss the full implication of what God said when He talked about creating man "In His image, after His likeness" That was the covenant God made to Himelf and has been satisfied, if you will, by the coming of Jesus.yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-63310273840124143472012-02-20T15:34:41.098-05:002012-02-20T15:34:41.098-05:00I do not dispute the covenant of redemption/grace,...I do not dispute the covenant of redemption/grace, in fact I celebrate it.<br /><br />I am concerned that you have missed the distinction that one needs to be reborn out of one covenant relationship with God into another, the covenant relationship of redemption/grace.<br /><br />Do you agree that there must be 2 covenants/relationships from the beginning of time?Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-77464298391811513762012-02-20T15:12:38.817-05:002012-02-20T15:12:38.817-05:00Mike, I fear you are reaching with your understand...Mike, I fear you are reaching with your understanding of covenants. The convenant of REDEMPTION is the overwhelming theme throughout Scripture, regardless of additional word-plays of such things as "covenant of works" and blah blah blah. God's purpose has ALWAYS been redemption, via the covenant of grace, fullfilled - in the fullness of time - by the death on the cross of Jesus Christ.<br /><br />The covenant of works, ie the rationalizing of responses based on the law, is really quite simple.<br /><br />1. 1 law. - don't eat.<br /><br />This didn't work. Okay.<br /><br />2. 10 laws. (see 10 commandments.)<br /><br />This didn't work. Okay.<br /><br />3. More laws - the religious leaders got carried away. Dont eat. Don't work. Stone everyone. Have the do 'n don't lists handy.<br /><br />This didn't work.<br /><br />What does work? As it was in the beginning, the covenant of grace (redemption).<br /><br />Amen.yogrynchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10707076100009002361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-52683573050785649112012-02-20T10:33:23.055-05:002012-02-20T10:33:23.055-05:00Well said, Grace existed from the beginning, etern...Well said, Grace existed from the beginning, eternally.<br /><br />When we talk about covenantal theology the word covenant get misused often. We could help ourselves by thinking about it as relationship. We are in a relationship with God.<br /><br />Everyone is in a relationship with God, that is just the way it is, God being the creator and humans the creation, we can not escape some form of relationship.<br /><br />Most of humanity is in a broken relationship, one of works, under the law which everyone is born into. This is often referred to as the covenant of works, but lets understand this as a relationship with God based on what we do (ie: do this and die or do this and live).<br /><br />Since this relationship is broken, God has a second relationship which has also existed eternally which is based on God's grace. This is a relationship of grace, or the covenant of grace. God must elect us out of the relationship that is broken and "re-birth" us into this new relationship which He administers and we can not break or damage no matter how hard we try.<br /><br />Herein lies the 2 covenants/relationships which have both existed from the beginning of time/creation. One lead to Hell, the other to Heaven.<br /><br />Rick you did well to explain and support the covenant of grace. I look forward to your exploration and philosophizing of the covenant of works. The contrast is beautiful and shows the marvelous love of God.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16094470858576002710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8539884466746069849.post-80296093144839384282012-02-17T22:43:52.763-05:002012-02-17T22:43:52.763-05:00I like the new look.I like the new look.Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858892901318801766noreply@blogger.com